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DAGuide · July 1st, 2008

There are a ton of posts on this forum about the cost of dye sub ink and the Sawgrass patent. In fact, there are several comments from people that feel very strongly in opposition to the patent rights and look for ways, whether legal or not, to find a cheaper alternative for ink. I started to think about this and had a sort of revelation when answering this post - Mixing ink systems... why not?. Why do we care about the cost of dye sub ink when it is a fraction of the total cost of an item?

Let’s use an example. You have an order for 24 shirts and it has 4 colors in the design that is 10” x 8” in size. Here is an example of the “approximate” cost of doing this job via screen printing and sublimation. Please note this does not count labor, investment money, electricity,…and other items.

* Screen Printing – around $5.00 for the film ($1.25 a sheet), $6.00 for screen cost/tape/cleaning chemicals, $4.00 ink ($0.16 per a shirt). This is approximately $0.63 per a shirt without the cost of shirt ($1.50). Thus the consumable cost is 30% of the total job cost minus labor.

* Sublimation Transfers – around $0.75 for ink and paper on an Epson 4800, around $5.00 or so for a dye sub shirt. Thus the consumable cost is 13% of the total job cost minus labor.

What I am trying to state is why everyone is focused on cost of the sublimation ink when the other variable costs (the blank imprintables) are much higher than compared to screen printing. Trying to get a 50%+ discount on sublimation ink by violating the patent could add up over time, but why not focus on finding cheaper alternatives for blank imprintables that could lead to higher profits in your pocket.

Just something to consider in my opinion.

Mark

plan b · July 1st, 2008

I agree I would like to see the price of substrates go down,, I think most people consider the action of sawgrass on the border of bully without competitive commerce the trap is layed, when someone feels traped then you look for different means of escape, so what it boils down to is kinda like microsoft was for some time making people traped, but as we all can see we mostly all use the same product day in and day out. So when the patent runs its course and its close ,I think ,plans by a lot of ink people are being layed now to saturate the market. Did I loose you? oh well lost myself for a while

ashamutt · July 1st, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAGuide


	There are a ton of posts on this forum about the cost of dye sub ink and the Sawgrass patent. In fact, there are several comments from people that feel very strongly in opposition to the patent rights and look for ways, whether legal or not, to find a cheaper alternative for ink. I started to think about this and had a sort of revelation when answering this post - Mixing ink systems... why not?. Why do we care about the cost of dye sub ink when it is a fraction of the total cost of an item? Let’s use an example. You have an order for 24 shirts and it has 4 colors in the design that is 10” x 8” in size. Here is an example of the “approximate” cost of doing this job via screen printing and sublimation. Please note this does not count labor, investment money, electricity,…and other items. * Screen Printing – around $5.00 for the film ($1.25 a sheet), $6.00 for screen cost/tape/cleaning chemicals, $4.00 ink ($0.16 per a shirt). This is approximately $0.63 per a shirt without the cost of shirt ($1.50). Thus the consumable cost is 30% of the total job cost minus labor. * Sublimation Transfers – around $0.75 for ink and paper on an Epson 4800, around $5.00 or so for a dye sub shirt. Thus the consumable cost is 13% of the total job cost minus labor. What I am trying to state is why everyone is focused on cost of the sublimation ink when the other variable costs (the blank imprintables) are much higher than compared to screen printing. Trying to get a 50%+ discount on sublimation ink by violating the patent could add up over time, but why not focus on finding cheaper alternatives for blank imprintables that could lead to higher profits in your pocket. Just something to consider in my opinion. Mark

Great point!

The ink prices have always scared me off!!! LOL!
I have never thought of it this way before....I am glad that you posted the "break down" in cost....I might start "subing" soon!!!!

Could you or someone else on here break down the cost for other substrates??
tiles...mugs...things of that nature???

Like what is the ink cost on doing a mug ? a tile?......

DAGuide · July 1st, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashamutt


	Great point! The ink prices have always scared me off!!! LOL! I have never thought of it this way before....I am glad that you posted the "break down" in cost....I might start "subing" soon!!!! Could you or someone else on here break down the cost for other substrates?? tiles...mugs...things of that nature??? Like what is the ink cost on doing a mug ? a tile?......

Check out just some of these sites for prices on different substrates:
- Conde Systems - Sublimation, CrystalMPrints, Transfer Paper, Heat Presses, ChromaBlast Ink - Order Online!
- RPL Supplies, Inc. - The Source for Heat Presses, Transfer Paper, Photo Mugs, Inkjet Sublimation, Photo Gifts and More for the Photo Gift Industry
- Heat Transfer, Dye Sublimation and Engraving Equipment & Supplies Source
- Heat transfer paper, tutorials and heat presses to start a business
- Transfer Paper, Heat Press, Ink Cartridges, Copier Toner - Coastal Business Supplies
- Johnson Plastics - Distributor of engravable plastics and dye sublimation materials.
- Heat Press, Transfer Paper, Sublimation Ink & More!
- Screen Printing Supplies, Screen Printing Equipment & Inks
- Screen Printing Equipment, Screen Printing Supplies, Sublimation and Direct-to-Garment Printing by LAWSON

joeshaul · July 1st, 2008

A lot of people just don't like the whole monopoly idea. I don't think I spend too much on sub inks, it is just a factor in the equation for my end price which eventually gets paid by the customer. I only had one real dealing with Sawgrass, and they handled it to my satisfaction, so I can't say that they lack support. If they supply the product and the support and I'm able to sell the result, I see no reason to complain.

COEDS · July 1st, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeshaul


	A lot of people just don't like the whole monopoly idea. I don't think I spend too much on sub inks, it is just a factor in the equation for my end price which eventually gets paid by the customer. I only had one real dealing with Sawgrass, and they handled it to my satisfaction, so I can't say that they lack support. If they supply the product and the support and I'm able to sell the result, I see no reason to complain.

I agree, I don't like to be told who to buy my ink from. I started in Sublimation a few years ago, I bought ink from a great guy and his ink worked great with no profile. I liked the way it looked and held up. I liked the idea of buying from a little guy trying to earn a living. I then found that the big bully(sawgrass) came after him and threatened to sue him for all he had.I think this entire issue is ubfair and violates the my rights to purchase from whom I want. ..... JB

DAGuide · July 1st, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan b


	So when the patent runs its course and its close ,I think ,plans by a lot of ink people are being layed now to saturate the market.

I am not sure if this is going to be a good thing or bad thing. If you have more inks and less consistency, then you open the door to making more mistakes (i.e. you waste more of the costly substrates). So having more quality inks to choose from would be better. That is what I was referring to in this post - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sub...on/t52930.html. Just my thoughts.

Mark

sid · July 1st, 2008

The cost of ink is an issue but being a fairly big user and I buy from more than one vendor to spread the wealth around to keep the market healthy. We may have to by from a few sources but at least you have a very consistent product. We do a lot of custom importing of our own products except Tee shirts too many SKUs to deal with. The marketing of shirts is tough as soon as say poly they run, as soon as you say lights and not darks it's a hard sell. I think companies like Haines and Vapor should start doing some market analysis of what the street wants and it a nice cut and with Vapor a better selection of colors. Especially womens. Really need some help there. Cost is another issue is they can bring the costs down they will get far more penetration into the market. Its a big draw back for big orders. We get some pretty large quotes but our shirt costs kill any order. Can we compete with silk screeners? Absolutely! Far better imaging, the ability to do variable data with no need for set up changes. It's the cost and limited variety of imprintables that hinder the sublimation industry its not the ink.

DREAMGLASS · July 2nd, 2008

On EBay here in the UK, it would appear Sawgrass is petty enough to have people's listings removed for small format printers, if there is any mention of sublimation. This even applies to folks that are selling small format printers privately, that have bulk feeders fitted. Unless it is proven they have Sawgrass ink in them. Many recently relisted items from both private and trade sellers have actually had to state this in their listings.

I would never put money in the hands of that company, for that very reason. I source my inks elsewhere at a far lower price. I get excellent results and they don't clog my printer. I don't indulge in restrictive trade practices, nor do I expect my suppliers to.

Like 'Sid' in the post above, attempting to sell tees you can only produce in light colours, is difficult enough. I have to use cut vinyl to use on darks and cottons. I would be far happier with ink companies, if they could find a viable solution to using sublimation on dark fabrics. That truly would benefit ALL of us.

John Thomson · July 2nd, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DREAMGLASS


	I would never put money in the hands of that company, for that very reason. I source my inks elsewhere at a far lower price. I get excellent results and they don't clog my printer. I don't indulge in restrictive trade practices, nor do I expect my suppliers to.

I do the same and have had no problems with my ink.

The cost of Sawgrass ink is not really the issue.......it is the fact that it is kept artificially high, purely to increase profit margins, using the Courts to enforce their monoploy is what stickes in my throat.

Imagine if I could close down other t shirt and mug printers just because they offered the same items cheaper than me??????????

MotoskinGraphix · July 2nd, 2008

Competition creates a healthy market with inks and substrates. Dye-Sub is more profound in the higher end custom apparel market more than the 15$ tee business.

DREAMGLASS · July 2nd, 2008

Ink manufacturers need to remember that most big businesses, were small businesses once.

Most small businesses and start ups, need to shop around for good deals, so their business can grow and prosper. They seldom have the available capital of the bigger companies.

Competition is good for everyone.

DAGuide · July 2nd, 2008

See, the majority of the posts are now going back to the whole reason why I made the first post. I understand why some people feel the way they do about Sawgrass. Right or wrong, that is your personally feelings. But in the end, spending the time to find an alternative ink (and not counting the potential legal issues that may arise in doing so) just does not seem to be the best way to raise your profits. Why not spend time outsourcing a lower cost alternative blank imprintable? I personally would rather see a 20% decrease in the blank imprintable than a 50% decrease in the cost of ink. This would equate to more profits and you are not violating any laws (whether you believe them to be appropriate or not).

Just making an observation from a non-emotional position. I will let this thread fade away. Everyone have a great week.

Mark

DREAMGLASS · July 2nd, 2008

Something constructive has come out of this Mark. Followed the link from your above post, to your perfect transfer tool. that's one handy gizmo. Do you have any distributors in Europe?

MotoskinGraphix · July 2nd, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAGuide


	See, the majority of the posts are now going back to the whole reason why I made the first post. I understand why some people feel the way they do about Sawgrass. Right or wrong, that is your personally feelings. But in the end, spending the time to find an alternative ink (and not counting the potential legal issues that may arise in doing so) just does not seem to be the best way to raise your profits. Why not spend time outsourcing a lower cost alternative blank imprintable? I personally would rather see a 20% decrease in the blank imprintable than a 50% decrease in the cost of ink. This would equate to more profits and you are not violating any laws (whether you believe them to be appropriate or not). Just making an observation from a non-emotional position. I will let this thread fade away. Everyone have a great week. Mark

I would love a cheaper blank or ink or both no question. I just dont think that is the actual market at this time for dye-sub printing.

There are companies doing killer printing in the higher end market where the finished product is in the 100$-200$ per unit range.

Those companies can afford the inks and the expensive blanks and they arent buying 4.50$ Hanes or Vapor gear to print on.

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