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sunnydayz · August 11th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Printzilla


	I do print on darks. I was the first in the US to have the white kit on a tjet, almost two years ago. I believe that having an edge on your competitors is important. I did have a large learning curve. It is because of this that I am acutely aware of the limitations of the process. I also think you understand what the limitations are.

Good, now when I run into a problem I will come look for you

jk

Seriously though, I really am very aware of what I am getting into, and my plans for the future are to invest in another machine just for lights but right now with spending the amount I plan to spend on this machine I want to at least have the capability to do both.

Bobbie

Rodney · August 12th, 2007

Quote:


	The issue is that they are not always full of BS. Sometimes they just do not disclose everything. Or maybe they just let people believe that they can print lots of multi shirt jobs using the current PT system and white ink. I know of reps who lost sales to other companies just because the other company told the customer what they wanted to hear. Obviously if you know it is BS you wouldn't fall for it.

I don't think that's the issue at all in this specific situation.

I'm sure it could be an issue, in this specific instance, the rep was saying things that just weren't true. Not "letting people believe", but just (what seemed like ) flat out lying.

It doesn't really matter, from a customer's perspective, if the rep is going to lose his sale to another company. That's up to each rep to be truthfu about what they are selling.

Some people believe that DTG is the answer to everything, but I don't think that's the case here.

PinkFreud · August 12th, 2007

Its good to see a good dialogue going in the forum...I especially appreciate hearing from Printzilla (Marc)....I respect and usually agree with most of what he says...He is one of the few people who had USSPI's white ink before I got mine, not much before but needless to say those of us who took the original plunge into printing "The holy grail" in 2005 are pioneers....I think we originally thought that we would be able to print large runs of black/dark shirts for our customers with only minimum extra effort...well....that is clearly not the case with the current
method used by DTGs....Printing with white was trial and error in the beginning and 2 years later it is still evolving....Fortunately my business model is strictly
1-off retail and low run wholesale.....I print mostly on black/dark shirts and have printed well over 10,000 shirts since I started. A business model that tries to use a digital garment printer to compete with screen printing is doomed to failure..
I usually turn down most of the high volume low profit jobs, even on light shirts
...it just is not what I do....I am strictly a digital printer and offer my customer full color and photographic prints in low quantities...even one....on any color shirt including black....This is a lucrative niche that most screeners wont touch...I suggest that anyone buying a DTG machine consider that their business model is much more important then which brand machine they buy.

Printzilla · August 12th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney


	I don't think that's the issue at all in this specific situation. I'm sure it could be an issue, in this specific instance, the rep was saying Some people believe that DTG is the answer to everything, but I don't think that's the case here.

I was speaking more to the general than the specific. I agree that in this situation it was just BS to cover the inadequacies of the machine on that particular print.

Just to be clear....99% of what I have posted in this thread goes to the industry in general, and was not aimed specifically at the thread starter or the experience they had with the rep for Anajet.

Printzilla · August 12th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFreud


	I suggest that anyone buying a DTG machine consider that their business model is much more important then which brand machine they buy.

Best advice in the whole thread!

jki540 · August 12th, 2007

for the record, i couldn't agree more either. it's all about the biz model, and how much of a premium you can charge for your service. IMHO, DTG wouldn't work well for large runs, but screen printing prbly works awesome in this arena. the method should match the model...otherwise all the equipt in the world can't save you

marc...thanks for your sage advice. it'd be great if you could let us know what you find out, as info from the next big show is made publicly available. i'll do my best to find/post info for everyone's benefit, but i dont think i'm as dialed-in to everything as you are.

as for mktg BS, i don't have much commentary. however, marc and susy both bring up great points around consistency of service. if one is bad, and the other is good, it averages to mediocre...which - by definition - is not good. it "feels" like DTG has better consistency of service. anajet seems patchy about service level (sometimes good; sometimes bad). is this a fair statement?

also...one final question: is most of the innovation around DTG occuring with ink? or with the printers? if it's ink, i don't mind buying today and upgrading the ink as new formulas come available. if it's equipt., it makes more sense to wait. if anyone has an opinion on this issue, i'd love to hear it.

as always...thx in advance for insights and opinions.

DAGuide · August 12th, 2007

Wow, this thread brings backs the good ole days when the Flexi-Jet and DTG printers were first coming out. I think I can add some insight into the Anajet printer since I have been working on two of them (one Dual CMYK and one with White Ink) for the last 5 days. I spent two days at the manufacturing facility of Anajet in Costa Mesa, CA and then ran the two printers in Advanced Color Solutions booth at the Long Beach NBM Show. Those that know me or stopped by the booth know that I tried to be as upfront as possible about anything with the Anajet. This includes the positives and negatives.

First, I think the important thing to understand is that the machines that are coming out in the market now are the 2nd Generation machines. The manufacturers learned from the past couple of years and made some really good improvements. The word from Dupont is that the new white ink that does not settle as much is only a couple of months away. So, things are definitely looking brighter for this area of application in our market. Most of us need to give thanks to the people like Printzilla and Pink Freud that were willing to be the pioneers (or guinea pigs depending on who you talk to) that have gotten the direct-to-garment part of our industry to where it is today.

As for the Anajet, it is based on an R1800 printer with some modifications. For example, the print head that is being used is not a standard R1800 print head. This came directly from the Manufacturer (i.e. lead technician, National Sales Manager, Owner of the company) and from another DTG manufacturer that looked at the print head and is familiar with the R1800. The R1800 and the 2400 (which is what the HM-1 is based off of) are pretty similar in print head speed – but the 2400 is slightly faster. What is different is that the R1800 is able to drop down a larger dot than the 2400 - which allows it to drop more ink and give better coverage without overworking the print head / nozzles. This information came from the RIP manufacturer for the HM-1 who I work with on another project outside of the DTG market. Anajet also allows you to change the dot setting from a small (i.e. light) to medium to large (i.e. heavy) dot size very easy in their RIP. Anajet also has a nice feature in the RIP that allows them to print a Test Pattern. This will allow you to determine what settings to print on when you switch from different types of fabric. Helps remove some of the trial-and-error that most people have done in the past.

The inks in the Anajet I believe are in fact the Dupont inks. Even though I could not get final confirmation about this from anyone at Anajet - but I do believe that the same company that cartridges other types of ink (i.e. heat transfer) for other companies in the industry is doing this work for them. This is just like what Fast T-Jet and DTG did when they first started because all the manufacturers want to make sure that you buy the ink from them. Consumables are on-going revenues for them. But everyone knows that the only real good white ink that is out on the market right now for DTGs is Dupont ink. So, I would go under the belief that the inks are in fact the same.

As for the cost per a print between the two machines (or any machine or ink when you compare cartridge versus bulk), the cartridge inks are going to cost more than the bulk inks. It is a lot a cheaper to pour down ink into 1 large liter bottle than it is to put into a bag, add a nozzle, vacuum seal the bag, glue the bag to one side of the cartridge, add a "L" piece of plastic to the bag (that tells the printer when you are getting low on ink) and pay for the plastic part of the cartridge. The difference is when you run ink a cartridge system (not matter whether it is a DTG, Sublimation, Large Format,...), you are running a closed ink system. The Anajet cartridges are specifically designed to almost eliminate all air in the ink delivery system. Bulk systems open the door to getting air, dust and other containments into your ink delivery system. The bottom line is that the cost per print on a cartridge-based printer is more, but you should have less down-time (and your labor time) getting your printer to work properly. Determine how much you value your time in doing maintenance and the potential more down-time running a bulk ink printer versus a cartridge printer will help you determine which way to go. This also goes back to the discussion above about finding a DTG printer that works best with your business model.

Also, remember that I believe there is approximately $2,500 price difference between the two machines. Anajet's MSRP is $14,500 and HM-1 from what I was told is $17,000 - of course there could always be show specials. So, whatever the difference in the cost per a print is not going to make that much of a difference until you cover this extra cost as well.

The other nice thing with the cartridge-based systems (Anajet, Direct Advantage - but not the Brother because you can't move it or you lose your warranty) is that it is easier to take on the road. You can easily pull the ink cartridges out and not have to worry about them getting shaken up (i.e. air bubbles in your bottles) or spilling on to your machine. Since the Anajet cartridges are vacuum packed, you can shake the cartridges and you will not create air bubbles. Anajet also has cartridges with cleaning solution in them. So, if you go on vacation or are not going to use your machine for a week or more…all you need to do is pull out the ink cartridges, slide the cleaning cartridges in and run a power clean or a couple of head cleanings.

As for the auto height raising of the HM-1 versus the manual height raising of Anajet, I don't see much of an advantage going one way or another. Most of the auto height devices that I have seen (including the Direct Advantage) don't always work right. They usually have the shirt too far from the printhead to get the best results. This is done because the manufacturer does not want to take the risk of the shirt hitting the print head and being responsible for replacing it. The best way is to manual move the head across the platen to see how high you want it and do this in different locations on the platen. Over time, you will know what the gap between the print head and the shirt needs to be in order to get the best results based on the settings in your RIP software. Most of the auto height versions also do not do a good job when you want to print on to a sleeve or a collar as takes the height measurement from one specific point on the platen. Some of the machines (not sure if the HM-1 has this feature) like the Anajet have an Obstruction Laser sensor that comes on when the pallet is sent into the machine to be printed on. This will act like a backup for the auto raising laser feature, but it covers the entire length of the platen (and the shirt). This sensor saved me a couple of times when I wanted to print a 15" long x 6" wide design that ran over part of the sleeve seam and the collar.

One of the little hidden gems that I really like about the Anajet is how you can get an absolutely level platen. The platen has 4 screws in the top of the platen that allow you to easily adjust the angle of the 4 corners using a level. The screws go into the clear piece of acrylic like material and sits on springs before they screw into the post that holds the platen up. There are 4 hand-tight screws under the platen that will secure the level platen when you are done. Anajet has a youth platen but currently does not have a sleeve platen, but are working on one. I honestly don't know what platens are available for the HM-1.

As far as the RIP differences, Anajet does have a much simpler to use - but not as powerful RIP software. Anajet has the ability to preview the design in the RIP and change the color of the background to match the color of your shirt. The HM-1 uses one of the most widely-used RIPs in the industry with some features that are specific only to their line of machines. You can do larger production runs with only ripping the job once on the HM-1 (i.e. send a smaller file to the printer and then have the ability to print it multiple times after that). The Anajet RIP currently does not do this. However,...(some insider information) there is the potential of using a similar version of the same software (just different printer model without some of the specific features made for DTG) of the HM-1 printer for the Anajet in the near future. So, the RIP software capabilities could be pretty close to the same in the near future. No guarantees on this though.

Saying this, I don't want to take away from any of the positives of the HM-1 printer. I have seen it print and it does look like a great machine. I have never had the chance to get inside the machine like I did on the Anajet. Hopefully, some of this information will help clear up some of the confusion that might have been created on the show floor. I have worked a lot of shows with a variety of different companies and now what it is liked when questions are flying at you from all the directions. I don't want to make it sound like I am making excuses for anything that was said at the show that might of been incorrect or misleading. Just trying to clear up some things that people have had questions about. If anyone would like to see some pictures of the Anajet machine, please send me a PM and I will send you some links to a private photo album that I created.

Now, time for me to get some sleep. Red-eye flights are the worse, especially when you are flying back to Orlando with a bunch of juiced up kids going on vacation. Good night.

Mark
DAGuide

jki540 · August 12th, 2007

hi mark...thanks for all of your great advice. i'm curious to know what your opinions are about the level of service between DTG vs Anajet.

I'll be honest. I really like the Anajet, because it seems so simple to use, and i think the cartrdge based system is the way forward. however, i didn't get a good "feeling" about the support level with anajet. the consistency between rep to rep wasn't as solid as DTG when i was at the tradeshow.

do you have any insights into how anajet manages their service? if something breaks, or i need help setting things up, am i on my own? or will someone be holding my hand ... LOL...

thanks!

Printzilla · August 12th, 2007

Absolutely great info as usual Mark, thanks! I agree with the comments on the cartridge based system. I think it is a plus, and all thing being equal I would choose carts over bottles.

A red eye full of vacationing snotty noses...priceless!!

tomtv · August 13th, 2007

Great info everyone!

There are so many little areas that get blown out of proportion in the average sales process. Crazy production rates, times and settings, ink costs are blown up in some places and hidden by others. There will be bad machines, bad operators, bad locations etc. but there will be many more great or good experiences in the long run.

Inks AND pretreatment are improving and really offer contined hope for easier operations etc. that will make the learning curve even shorter.

Industry support is getting better, new players are coming to market with innovative products and the market is just plain maturing a bit.

Here, Here on the business model being one of the main things to consider. It is just the tool, though very important it still needs a craftsmen of some sort to operate it in order to get the most out of it. A real craftsmen takes care of his tools, maintains them and does preventative work to ensure their long term quality.

Great to hear all the experiences,

Tom

DAGuide · August 13th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by jki540


	hi mark...thanks for all of your great advice. i'm curious to know what your opinions are about the level of service between DTG vs Anajet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jki540


	I'll be honest. I really like the Anajet, because it seems so simple to use, and i think the cartrdge based system is the way forward. However, i didn't get a good "feeling" about the support level with anajet. the consistency between rep to rep wasn't as solid as DTG when i was at the tradeshow. do you have any insights into how anajet manages their service? if something breaks, or i need help setting things up, am i on my own? or will someone be holding my hand ... LOL... thanks!

It is important to understand that DTG America (the main distributor for the HM-1 and other DTG brand line of equipment) is split up into two companies in the United States. Anything west of the Mississippi River is the selling / support responsibilities for SWF Mesa (headquarters out of Texas, with offices in multiple locations). East of the Mississippi River is handled by SWF East (headquarters in Tampa, FL and offices in multiple locations). Since I live on the Eastern half, primarily all of my contact has been with SWF East. Don Copeland, Bill Schneider and the rest of the tech guys at SWF East are a good group of people and for the most part I have heard nothing but positive things about them. SWF East tends to wait a little longer to release things than SWF Mesa. A perfect example is SWF East just recently launched the HM-1 and I have seen the same printer in SWF Mesa's booth for a couple of shows. So, I am afraid that I can't really compare SWF Mesa to Anajet in terms of customer support because of the lack of interaction with SWF Mesa.

What I can tell you is how Anajet handles its support. You first level of support should be the distributor that you purchase your machine from. Anajet does not sell machines direct. Remember, DTG America is just a distributor of the HM-1 machine - they are not the manufacturer (that is MasterMind out of Japan). So, your first level of support is the company that you purchase the Anajet from. Last week I was in SoCal learning about the machine so I could put together a support package for Advanced Color Solutions (the Anajet Rep for the SoCal area). ACS is one of the largest Roland distributors in SoCal (#1 last month for the large format printers) and has an excellent support system set up. The lead tech (Mike) can take almost any printer apart and put it back together. Depending on where you live, I know that ACS has the capability of personally delivering the machine, installing it and providing the training in your shop – which is a really nice feature. But, obviously that can’t do that for everyone in the US or the world. You will need to talk to them directly to see if that is something that they can do for you. I would call and ask to speak with Matt Gusse if you are interested in seeing if this is possible.

Anajet will also do support as well. They have 3 full-time technical support guys (Ken - head tech, Eddy and one other guy that I can't remember his name) and several other people in the office that can supplement support as well. It is important to understand that the Anajet people are only manufacturing and supporting DTG printers. Again, I have little contact with the SWF Mesa group...so I am not sure if the same techs do the DTG machines, embroidery machines and the other equipment that they sell. This is something that you should inquire about.

Since you are only 2 hours from the SWF Mesa office in Anaheim, that should put you in about the same range from the actual manufacturing facility of the Anajet. They are out of Costa Mesa. I am pretty sure that we drove through Anaheim on the 55 highway to get to Costa Mesa from Riverside. (Please don't get me started on the traffic on the 55 and 91 -

). So, access to any inks or parts if necessary should not be a problem for you. I don't think Anajet is set up to do Customer training in their facility for all their customers. But, they might be open to allowing someone to come through and walk through the building if that is what you need to make the purchase. It might not hurt to ask, but I can't guarantee you anything.

I am not sure if there is much else that I can tell you. I would recommend getting more information about the companies that you are considering buying it from and go from there. If you have more detailed questions, feel free to private message me as well. Hope this helps.

Mark
DAGuide

sunnydayz · August 13th, 2007

I have to say that I did see several booths that were selling the Anajet, maybe sue and I went to the same one as the reps at that particular booth did not seem to know very much about the machine. The reason I went to see the Anajet was because I had heard alot of good things about them. I myself dont know a whole lot about the machine as I wasnt able to find out much info from the rep I dealt with and that was what made me walk away from considering the machine. I go on the theory that the customer service I get in the beginning is going to be what I deal with in the future. So I decided against the anajet and went with the HM1.

I am not saying that customer service is all that matters, the machine matters the most, but I also want to have a company that is there to help me when I need them. I just think that particular distributor did not do the anajet any justice in the way that they were selling it.

Mark, the HM1 also has the laser guide for height as well.

I agree that your business model is the most important thing and I took that into account before I made up my mind what type of printing I wanted to get into to expand further in my business. All of my orders are small run, I dont do large runs at all and that is why this machine fits my plan. If I were going to do large runs I would never consider DTG as I am aware the inks are very expensive and the consistancy on a large run is not there.

I think both machines probably are good machines if the person buying it is willing and has the time to learn it, do proper maintenance on it and prepare themselves before jumping into a purchase.

Bobbie

DAGuide · August 13th, 2007

Bobbie,

Congrats on your HM-1 purchase! By no means am I discouraging anyone against that machine or that company. It sounds like you have done your research and will be happy with your decision. I know how frustrating it can be when you can go to different booths (or even the same booth and speak to different people) and get different information. Below is a picture of the ACS booth since I have gotten a couple of emails from people wanting to which booth I am talking about. The Anajet printers are on the left side on two grey tables. Sorry, the picture is kinda dark.

Bobbie, can you please confirm that the HM1 has a laser that stays on the entire time the platen goes into the machine before it prints - not just while the height is being set. I know some (like the Direct Advantage) use a laser that tells the platen to stop when it is being adjusted up to the print head. However, I like to lay the shirt on the platen so that part of the sleeve or collar is on it. Because the seam sticks up higher than the rest of the shirt, you can get a head strike (i.e. where the bottom of the print head touches the shirt and some ink goes on to the shirt - more of a hassle than anything else). I really think all the manufacturers should have a way where you can have both types of lasers and be able to override them if you want. But, I might be day dreaming on that one.

Have fun printing on your new machine when you get it. Let us know how great it is by posting some pictures. Have a great week!

Mark

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