Discussion, tips, pictures, reviews and peer to peer support for current and future owners of Belquette manufactured machines, including the MOD-1 DTG machine and the Flexi-Jet set series of printers.
Lately there have been some discussions regarding closed ink delivery system vs. open ink delivery systems.
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Before we get into all that technical boring stuff...): , lets look at our ink as a different water based liquid.
Let’s say our ink is a bottle of ketchup, as soon as we open that vacuum sealed container the expiration process starts counting down, why? “because we have exposed it to air” If you could punch a hole in the side and suck the Ketchup out of the bottle over-coming the vacuum in the bottle you would always have fresh Ketchup ...pure and simple, but then you would never need to throw that bottle out until it was empty, the way it should be, but Ketchup is cheap compared to white ink, so we chuck it.
But when this happens to your white ink it's not so easy to just chuck it, so one would opt to suck it out and never open it up to atmosphere again knowing what will and does happen, having the choice.
For those that have ever used white ink in open bottles on your machine does it start to begin to look a bit like crusted Ketchup around the rim?
Well, anyone that does not say "yes" must live in zero gravity.
This happens at an accelerated rate once the white ink is exposed to air.
The color inks are also prone to drying and changes states but at a slower rate but never the less will suffer from in-accurate drop formation. Talked about later.
So why then does the majority of DTG machines still use open systems?
Most DTG manufactures are not even aware of the problems associated or understand what’s going on in the ink head that open systems cause...even we needed to discover this first hand! by putting machines into high production.
Since there are various bulk feed systems on the market why 're-invent the wheel 'so to speak. History on that...
These systems where primarily developed to supply dye based inks and then pigments ink came along that proved to be a bit more challenging since now the damper above the print head could not simply just be a piece of foam because it would collect the pigments. The manufactures of these system has to figure out a way to maintain the correct head pressure or really vacuum level above the ink head. This proved no small feat and there is still not one that can control the optimum vacuum level needed, they simple opted to instruct the user to lift or lower the bottles to try and keep it a level somewhere in line with the bottom of the ink head hoping it would be adequate for correct drop formation. One of the many problems is that its’ more sensitive then one may think and that the slightest change in pressure will effect what the drop looks like and how well it will jet. So how do you know where the correct level of the ink should be to allow the ink drop to form correctly,... you don’t. The correct ink level can even be affected by your elevation level in which the machine is operated.
In addition, even the dampers most of these systems use where developed for closed degassed bags not open ink delivery, so they do not function as intended. But even if you do happen to get the correct level close the entrained air will still play havoc during jetting and you will get drop outs.
These ink delivery systems where designed to be used on your desktop printer running comparable inks, not higher viscosity garment inks where the demands are much greater and much more sensitive in many aspects.
Bottom line is that its’ not a trivial procedure to properly degases and bag ink, so many have not opted to change it.
Degassing the ink at the manufacturing source causes ink handling and packaging problems. To maintain the ink in its degassed state, the ink must be packaged in air-tight packaging, which adds to the manufacturing cost and time.
Some technical facts: Air and ink should not be mixing until it exits the nozzle.
In ink-jet printers, an ink is delivered from an ink cartridge to a printer head by capillary action. However, it is known that, during delivery of the ink, minute air bubbles present in the ink or within the ink cartridge gives flow resistance to the ink. Moreover, it is also known that, when the ink head is repeatedly pressurized and depressurized during ink ejection, dissolved gases (e.g., dissolved oxygen and dissolved nitrogen) present in the ink tend to stagnate in the ink head and cause print dot losses at the time of ink ejection.
By removing the bubbles from the ink before the ink jet print head, (a degassed bag) the ink jet head will always be primed and misfiring can be eliminated, this problem is elevated even more so when jetting at high frequencies using multiple channels as required when firing white at flow rates and large dot sizes that are above what are normally jetted with Epson based heads. These same principles also apply to any ink jet head including Spectra, Konica, or Zaar,......etc...none of them will jet correctly if minute air bubbles are present or the vacuum levels above the head are changing are not just perfect. During white ink jetting we are asking all the nozzles to drive in somewhat of an unorthodox way, "Full throttle" at the same time. If you think about it there really was no need to drive a head like this before white ink, so it becomes an absolute necessity to ensure that we have our head vacuum level perfect and our ink is oxygen free.
Degassing the ink has been shown not only to prevent air pockets from forming, but in some cases, the degassed ink even reabsorbs existing pockets, how about that!
To make matters even worse users are told to shake the white ink daily to keep the white ink pigments suspended which in fact entrain air bubbles that become most visible but many at the microscopic level will travel through your ink lines past the filter in the damper and become literally a bolder with respect to the size of the cavities it must travel through. Just one tiny air bubble can stop the jetting cycle and have violent effects on the inside walls of the piezo elements causing nozzle drop outs and misdirection of ink dots that splatters over the nozzle plate and adjacent components.
With a closed bag you can shake the ink to agitate the pigments and not entrain air because the fluid is under vacuum and there is no air to speak of, in addition the fluid will stay suspended much longer and in most cases you will not need flip it over more then once a day.
This is what happens when drops are deflected...see the haze building, this was only after about 8 inches of printing with an open system 'the drops are deformed and erratic".
The nozzles are well on their way to choking....and is totally due to entrained air along with incorrect head vacuum and pressure levels.
To be continued…..
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Flexi-Jet & mod Support & Sales (877) 202-0886 www.belquette.com
Last edited by ReneeMarlea; May 26th, 2009 at 07:21 AM.
By the way, the current white ink has a 12 month shelf life if properly agitated (as in a recirculation system or other agitation system). Reality is, that if you do not intend on using your white ink (let's say 16 oz worth) in a year, then you shouldn't even bother with having it in your machine. Why waste any of this "white gold" on head cleanings if you don't have to.
This is why all dtg makers have to offer both way. When you think wasting ink use reset cartridge fill with CS and when you use ink use sealed bag cartridge. We make sealed cartridge through Spectrum (most of us are) filling company around $10. But I am thinking about fill myself. There are so many inexpensive filling machine are available. ($200-$5000)
1. buy bag (Internet China)
2. syringe or some sort vacuum the bag and fill the ink with syringe or pump. (India has many)
3. Buy chip and attach to the case. (99% made in China) $.25
No secret!!
Most dtg suppliers are selling 220ml for $70 now. 110ml should be 1/2
There are forever chip board (attach out side) for less $100. If you use this no reset just keep change the bags.
We experienced much better result on testing between Sealed and opened. That is why I offer both.
Lastly
When you printing use sealed bag cartridge is my recommendation. No matter what mechanic system you apply to the printer it will not match.
One other advantage is
If there are any ink settling occurred it will stay with bag not kill your printhead or damper.
__________________
NeoFlex Aeoon Sequin Rhinestone machine Fastest Tagless Printer RapidTag Pad Screen Print www.screenprintsupply.com One stop Shopping for printers
Last edited by allamerican; May 28th, 2009 at 08:34 AM.
Renee / Peter,
do either of you have pictures of your closed bag systems or cartridges you can post?
Have you considered making conversion kits for existing DTG machines out there on the market?
Renee / Peter,
do either of you have pictures of your closed bag systems or cartridges you can post?
Have you considered making conversion kits for existing DTG machines out there on the market?
Our mod1 uses 250ml bags, yes we have had other DTG machines change over to our closed systems with outstanding results. We have a kits available.
Our degassing process is done in house using a custom built apparatus that ensures the ink meets our QC specifications for dissolved oxygen levels for each bag.
FYI, Belquette new line of printers are only supplied with closed systems.
We do not offer an open system for reasons stated above.
Offering both an open and closed system would be deceptive based on our findings and not be in the best interest of our users or our company's reputation.
We do not offer an open system for reasons stated above.
Offering both an open and closed system would be deceptive based on our findings and not be in the best interest of our users or our company's reputation.
My questions is
While Brother and Ana supplied closed system (For a longest time) you did not say a word. Why? You did not know or because now you have it? Now not a big deal most dtg mfg have them.
I am very happy to see that now you are care of company's reputation and users interest.
__________________
NeoFlex Aeoon Sequin Rhinestone machine Fastest Tagless Printer RapidTag Pad Screen Print www.screenprintsupply.com One stop Shopping for printers
Last edited by allamerican; June 1st, 2009 at 08:57 AM.
Offering both an open and closed system would be deceptive based on our findings and not be in the best interest of our users or our company's reputation.
I don't want this forumers will confuse with your statement.
Offer both means : sealed 1 set (8) and Refill cartridge (and not or) 1 set (8) should be in starter's package. Not just one choice = bad choice.
Reasons
1. As Don said " why waste gold white?". using refill cartridge when you do need to save.
2. When user need to Clean with Cleaning solution. Much cheaper. Instead of buy sealed bag with solution.
I hope you can agree on something sometimes.
__________________
NeoFlex Aeoon Sequin Rhinestone machine Fastest Tagless Printer RapidTag Pad Screen Print www.screenprintsupply.com One stop Shopping for printers
Last edited by allamerican; June 1st, 2009 at 09:42 AM.
I don't want this forumers will confuse with your statement.
Offer both means : sealed 1 set (8) and Refill cartridge and (not or) 1 set (8) should be in starter's package. Not just one choice = bad choice.
Reasons
1. As Don said " why waste gold white?". using refill cartridge you do not need to.
2. When user need to Clean with Cleaning solution. Much cheaper. Instead of buy sealed bag with solution.
I hope you can agree on something sometimes.
Looks like Mark is busy building machines, I'll answer this for him.
1. You do not waste white ink with the bags, it uses all the ink. The question isn't whether you are wasting ink or not, it's whether air introduced into the systems allows for more clogging. It does. A closed system eliminates the issue of air. This is why selling systems in both open and closed formats is not in the best interest of Belquette. Once this was discovered (obviously not immediately), then the point of selling open container systems would be counterproductive to the goals of Belquette.
2. Cleaning solution is not an issue. The next step of the mod1 will allow for extreme minimal amounts of cleaning fluid. In other words, one bag with go a VERY long way.
__________________
BelQuette Inc, 877.202.0886 & Screener's Choice, 330-345-5877
Mod1 Direct to Garment Printer, Made in the USA www.belquette.com
I am very happy to see that now you are care of company's reputation and users interest.
I have been working with BelQuette as a consultant for a little over a month now, and this is the sentiment from most of the Flexi-Jet users I have spoken with. Which is a good thing since now BelQuette is doing everything under one roof from manufacturing, service, supplies, warranty and post-warranty support.
Looks like Mark is busy building machines, I'll answer this for him.
1. You do not waste white ink with the bags, it uses all the ink. The question isn't whether you are wasting ink or not, it's whether air introduced into the systems allows for more clogging. It does. A closed system eliminates the issue of air. This is why selling systems in both open and closed formats is not in the best interest of Belquette. Once this was discovered (obviously not immediately), then the point of selling open container systems would be counterproductive to the goals of Belquette.
2. Cleaning solution is not an issue. The next step of the mod1 will allow for extreme minimal amounts of cleaning fluid. In other words, one bag with go a VERY long way.
1."it uses all ink" Use all ink 100%? which planet machine does that? Not jsut Hardware issue, Ink is not 100% perfect to shirt printing yet but ink came a long way than starting time. Until then we need clean time to time.
2. I heard that before "somthing is coming" Duet, i180, Sprayer, kiss, Mod1 --etc. I hope they will come up this time so sure.
Until then thank you for agree with that sealed bags waste.
__________________
NeoFlex Aeoon Sequin Rhinestone machine Fastest Tagless Printer RapidTag Pad Screen Print www.screenprintsupply.com One stop Shopping for printers
1."it uses all ink" Use all ink 100%? which planet machine does that? Not jsut Hardware issue, Ink is not 100% perfect to shirt printing yet but ink came a long way than starting time. Until then we need clean time to time.
2. I heard that before "somthing is coming" Duet, i180, Sprayer, kiss, Mod1 --etc. I hope they will come up this time so sure.
Until then thank you for agree with that sealed bags waste.
In all of my time talking with you over the years, you definitely are a player of words, so I'll try to speak a little more clearly so you understand what I am saying.
1. Not sure what you are trying to say here. The bags use the ink and when finished, it's completely flat. I also never said the machine didn't need cleaned, I said with the next step, it will not use as much cleaning solution as other machines on the market.
2. Duet + i180 + kiss = mod1/mod2, why would Belquette release something prematurely when they can combine THEIR technology into one machine. This is what you are getting with the mod1. Multiple features through various testings all combined into a single unit. What's not to love about that. And no, I don't agree a sealed bag is a waste. If it eliminates issues on the machine, it is a big win for end users.
In this little DTG feud, manufacturers tend to forget the customers and end up competing with other manufacturers. This is one reason why, Belquette won't go after the NeoFlex, Blazer Pro, DTG Bullet and DTG Express, (maybe others but not sure). These are ALL machines that are built on the machines printer moving instead of the platen. As you know, the FlexiJet by Belquette was the first.
When a good idea is implemented, followers always come along. This is not a cut on any company at all, but a boast of why Belquette stands out. It's innovation is what drives it. So Belquette doesn't do anything the same as anyone else. In this sense, THEY ARE looking out for the customer, while others drive is more or less competition.
Call it what you want, and this is not designed to start a debate, but simply to show Belquette is not interested in being a follower, but a leader. This is a win/win situation for customers. Because the end user will win when all manufacturers start to follow suit and build machines that are better for everyone. It's how technology advances.
Right now, speed tests are showing a 10"x14" image on black are printed in 2 minutes 30 seconds. The only other printer on the market that can even compete with that is the $213,000 Kornit. When the mod2 is released, the $26,500 machine will be faster than the $213,000 machine. This again is a big win for customers.
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BelQuette Inc, 877.202.0886 & Screener's Choice, 330-345-5877
Mod1 Direct to Garment Printer, Made in the USA www.belquette.com
You asked a question. Your question was phrased in a way that was speaking negative of the mod1. This in no way was an advertisement, but an explanation of why the mod1 is the way it is.
And the last time I checked, I didn't work for Belquette. Yes I am repping one of their products, but the very explanations I gave to your comments, is the very reason I have stuck with Belquette.
From now on, maybe I should issue a disclaimer?
**DISCLAIMER: This post is not an advertisement, but a positive response to a negative post**
__________________
BelQuette Inc, 877.202.0886 & Screener's Choice, 330-345-5877
Mod1 Direct to Garment Printer, Made in the USA www.belquette.com
Qualifier, the DTG Bullet/Xpress were head moving units at about the same time as the Flexi-Jet came out, so I don't think either can really claim the "innovation" spot. And, I was in Japan in April of 2006 when we saw a prototype of the HM1 (head moving) printer that had been in development for nearly a year at that point.
Why closed ink delivery over open style? 
